#7 | In Memory of Carla Bartolucci + Einkorn Wheat
This week, I heard the very sad news of the passing of Carla Bartolucci. I’ve not met her, but her work has influenced my relationship with food in ways that ripple out to most people I connect with over food. Carla was the CEO and Founder of Jovial Foods (along with her husband) and responsible for bringing awareness of Einkorn wheat closer to the mainstream. Her journey with this original, non-hybridized wheat started with her daughter’s intense gluten sensitivities combined with her passion for quality food straight from the source. I’ve invited my dear friend, Sage Lee, to join me in reminiscing about the impact Carla & Einkorn have had on us and to share a bit more about this delicious, unique wheat. Our love and prayers go out to Carla’s family and the entire Jovial community. What is remembered, lives.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
Jovial Foods website (where you can learn more about Einkorn and purchase their entire line of products)
Carla’s YouTube Video Series: “Mastering Einkorn Sourdough Baking”
Carla’s Cookbook: “Einkorn: Recipes for Nature’s Original Wheat”
Become a member of the Women In Food Community at: WomenInFood.Net/Community
Missy’s Farm Website: CrownHillFarm.com
Missy’s Business Coaching Website: SpiritBizPeople.com
In our commitment accessibility, we’d love to offer polished show notes to help make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who like to read rather than listen to podcasts. However, Women in Food is still a startup with limited resources. So we’re not there yet.
What we can offer are these very imperfect show notes via the Scribie service. The transcription is far from perfect. But hopefully it’s close enough - even with the errors - to give those who aren’t able or inclined to learn from audio interviews a way to participate.
DOWNLOAD THE TRANSCRIPTION or READ IT BELOW
0:00:06.0 S1: Welcome to another episode of women in food. I'm your hostess, Missy singer DuMars. This podcast is all about the intersection of three things food, business, and the famine. Each episode, I invite you to sit down with me in my interview guest as we dive into this intersection to spark your food curiosity, share a favorite recipe and give you some fun food explorations along the way. I'm inspired by these women farmers, shaft bakers, cooks, writers and food makers, who all bring their passion for beauty, nourishment, community, pleasure connection and deep care to others through food. These are women who advocate and take action towards increased food awareness for themselves, their families and their neighborhoods. Before I introduce today's topic, I have one request, if you could go over to iTunes or whatever app you're using to listen and give us a rating and review. It's a simple act. That helps us a ton. Thank you so much. So today's episode is a quick episode and it's a little different, I've invited my first ever nonwoman guest, my dear friend Sage Lee, to join me to discuss the recent passing of an amazing woman in food, Carla Bartolucci.
0:01:28.2 S1: I just learned about Carlas passing this week, her family and her company posted about it publicly on social media, and I felt really drawn to share a little bit about her impact on my life. I brought my friend Sage here because the impact that she made on me, rippled out to many of my friends and see a story of that impact is one that I think of very often, so Sage, welcome to women and food. Welcome to being the first nonWoman on woman in food. I'm so glad you're here to have this conversation with me...
0:02:03.6 S2: Well, gosh, I'm so happy to be here too, and really honored that I'm your first nonwoman guest. I'll try to live up to it.
0:02:15.8 S1: Thank you, I can't think of a better human to step into that honor because you embody so much wholeness and balance in all things, so thank you for respecting and holding the sacredness of this role you're stepping in to... Thank you. Yeah, so Karla was the CEO of jovial foods, which my listeners may or may not have heard of, they are the largest grower and maker of Einkorn wheat, flour and products, and we'll get into what Einkorn is in a minute, that being introduced to that. We radically changed my life in terms of Cooking, Baking and awareness to where our food comes from, it's probably one of the first foods that I really took a deep dive into the history of wheat and modern wheat and ancient grains, and choosing to bake and cook really differently. So I wanted to take a moment in an episode to recognize Carla, she really is someone who embodies the three things of women and food, and that she taught so much about food through her book, through her life get away retreats in Tuscany, Italy. That I always dreamed of going on and through all her blog posts and social media and articles and writing and videos, making videos and community, and she is a successful business woman having created jovial foods and before that, Shane husband brought the bioNature Organic Italian products to the United States, so they've been successful entrepreneurs in the food world for a very long time, and she really embodies feminine as a mother, as a woman, as a...
0:04:23.9 S1: I'll say a hearth keeper, and so it felt important to me to bring her to all of you listening.
0:04:34.4 S2: Well, it really is a moment to just take and appreciate Karla, Karla barge, Lucy has had an investable effect on so many people in this world through her introduction or her reintroduction of Einkorn products into the world. And we'll get into how I got introduced to her in
just a minute, but I just wanna say that she actually made it possible for me to eat wheat again when I never thought I would be able to do that.
0:05:19.1 S1: Yeah, and she's done that for hundred thousands and thousands of people, and it really comes from her personal story with her daughter having a pretty significant wheat intolerance, and I'm just gonna say I'm not an expert on Carl's life story in history, what I know is through what's been published and what she's written about and talked about, and so in the show notes, I will put links to the jovial website and to where you can order her book about in core and in the whole beginning, she tells her story and her discovery of Einkorn we and what it is, and then gets into how to work with it 'cause it's a little different and the science of icon, but really what I do know is that it started... Obviously, she and her husband had a lifelong passion for food and culinary and for quality ingredients, they were living in Italy and could drive up into the hills and get real prut and large straight from the farms and things like that. And they were having issues with her daughter and it was diagnosed as a significant wheat intolerance, and that started them on the journey, on her as a mother, on the journey to find a solution and figure out what else could be possible for their family and from what I understand they came across some scientists in Italy who were studying this original wheat that had not been hybridized or changed, and the science was showing that the chromosomes and the makeup of the wheat protein was different enough that people who generally have intolerance or struggle with digesting week could comfortably and enjoyable.
0:07:11.1 S1: Digest Einkorn. So her story is what led to influencing so many other people's very similar stories.
0:07:21.5 S2: And Missy, just curious, because I don't know the answer to this question, and that is, when you've got somebody who has actual celiac disease because there actually is gluten in Einkorn flour is it different enough so that people with celiac disease can actually eat Einkorn, or is it just for people with gluten or wheat intolerance or problems digesting wheat and not celiac disease.
0:07:55.5 S1: My understanding and what I tell people when I share about Einkorn is that If you're celiac, I wouldn't touch it because it's still gluten. And in fact, I was reading an interview earlier today with Carla for a Wellness publication, and they asked her her five tips for living well or wellness tips, and one of the first things she really was talking about was if something comes up, go to the doctor and get it diagnosed. And if it's celiac, I don't play around with trying other in sensitivities and things like that, like Do what you need to do to care of it, take care of yourself. And so my impression and my understanding without knowing the science is that if you have celiac you still wouldn't wanna use in
0:08:44.1 S2: Einkorn... Yeah, that's really important. And I guess for me, what was happening was that I was feeling like a lack of energy instead of feeling energized after a meal, that included quiet, I was feeling low energy. Sometimes my stomach would be sharp pains in my stomach as I was trying to digest it and it just wasn't a pleasant experience, and so I just had said, Do you know what, it's just... Forget about the wheat thing, I can come up with other solutions. But I missed cake, I missed pasta. There were several things. Oh, in Pickaway.
0:09:34.9 S1: I know the three things I made with you the first time I introduced it in coring to you,
and it was... We made home Pasta, I don't know if you recall, but I do Morissette third, try to tell the story we wanted to be... Was it like a butternut squash rally, and I used the Ravel stuffing hopper on my pasta machine, and it just amused the dough and it Mustang and it was just group everywhere, not nice. Pretty real, and you're not supposed to rinse with water, pasta machine, a hand crank pasta machine because of the oils that make the gas work, and so were meticulously trying to clean all the parts off with paper towels, but eventually we made some amazing pasta, and I remember the other thing was pancakes, and I think we baked a cake.
0:10:26.7 S2: We bike to cake, and that was amazing because it was a completely from scratch, no recipe cake that was like one of the best cakes I've ever had, and the thing that struck me about Einkorn is that, you know how has a kind of more brown quality to it anyway, but the color of Einkorn when it's baked into a cake is just so lusciously Brown, it's like a topic groundwater.
0:11:00.9 S1: The more big part is brown, but in general, breads and everything I make, it's got a little bit more Nadine in the flavor, and it's a beautiful golden yellow color, so I almost exclusively bake with... I inform, but I love that it adds flavor, it's actually... So the thing, I guess we'll talk about Einkorn, what it is, it's an original original head, so it's really the first wild wheat, and one of the reasons why it's not in production is that it's a pretty low yield, it still has the husk on the outside, and it's not... When you think of we, modern we, and you picture in your head like a field of wheat, it's got a big head at the top of the grass that waves in the wind and the raises and is kinda top heavy, but I horn the kernels are all along with stock, and then the Hosking crosses, you're gonna lose 40% of the weight or volume in yield, and so as farmers started to come up with ways to get larger yields for their effort in... Einkorn sort of fell by the wayside. I almost disappeared until people like Carla and her husband rodeo came along and these Italian scientists who were researching and I came along, and now I'm starting to see in the past couple of years, more and more small scale growers and Mills offering in Einkorn options.
0:12:32.9 S1: There's a couple here in the United States I know of and a few others, when I Google Einkorn flour, more options come up, although jovial Carlas company comes up first. All the time.
0:12:46.5 S2: Yeah, it always comes up first, but you can't blame farmers for wanting to increase yields, and I don't think that they thought that they were doing a bad thing when they did that, but I think just after years and years of continual and breeding and experiments with trying to increase the yield, then you end up with something that can actually have problems, and I really wanna appreciate Karla for actually noticing, Oh well, it's not wheat, that's the problem, it's the current instantiation of wheat, that's the problem, it's the heat that's being grown now that's the problem and doing the really substantial work to do the research and figure out what needed to be done instead. Yeah.
0:13:40.2 S1: Yeah, they really worked with... They basically found all these small scale farmers all over Italy and said, Hey, would you grow this for us, and then Postmates to turn it into pasta and cracker beakers to turn in crackers, and on their website, you can see all the artisans and farmers and people that they work with... Which is I love, I love doing that. I may not be able to go to the field to meet the farmer myself, but it's as close as you can get for a manufactured product of now your farm or know your food. And yeah, man, the... Einkorn, I think what happened is as you work on increasing yield in general, often the nutrient level decreases because increasing the yield, you're
also usually increasing how fast something grows, so it doesn't have as much time to develop nutrients and things like that, and so that's kind of... And then the various hybridization, the ways that they develop plants of all kinds of vegetables to increase you be more pestresistant, be more pesticide resistant, so that they can spray it for past all those things, changing the genetic structure for those things.
0:14:52.9 S1: It tends to change the protein structure and our bodies don't genetically adapt nearly as fast as technology does, and I've read other books about how our bodies are still developed from 20000 years ago or whatever it is, even though modern life is so radically different. Our bodies are still operating. As if we're Neolithic. So it's kind of interesting.
0:15:26.4 S2: That is really fascinating. So messy, I'm curious about the... Now that you're talking about nutritional content in, Einkorn, does it have more or less protein than regular wheat?
0:15:43.3 S1: Oh, that's a good question. 200% more routine than modern R, and I'm just referencing Carlas book. She says IC contains 200% more looting. The same antioxidant that gives eggshell, 50% more manganese, riboflavin in zinc compared to Durham week, 20% more magnesium, Simon nice and iron vitamin, all the essential nutrients. Let me see if I give back 15% less starch, 30, roughly 30% more protein. There you go.
0:16:22.7 S2: Wow, that's considerably a larger amount of protein, and I'm just fascinated by Louie, if it's the thing that gives Aggies the yellow color, that's why... That's lovely. Golden yellow, right? That's a ratios
0:16:37.0 S1: Nutrients. Nutrients are what give nutrients and the antiOcado what give foods flavor, the same with any of our vegetables, look at a soil grown organic soil groan airline that's got all these different rich colors and it has so much more flavor than a conventional modern grown monograph grown to meet out the grocery store that's like a lighter paler red and pale on the inside. And doesn't taste like much. So yeah, the nutrients that's drawing from soil and contains in the plant in these older varieties are magnificent and what give us so much flavor.
0:17:23.5 S2: And I wanna also point out that the other thing that gives noncommercial tomatoes more flavor is the fact that they're picked actually when they're ripe instead of picked when they are unripe and an artificially colored by exposure to gases or liquids to make them read when they're not actually ripe yet.
0:17:46.6 S1: Right, well, that goes back to what we were talking about before about... A part of having large yields is like harvesting early as well as for the shipping reasons, but harvesting early, and so there isn't the time to allow nutrient development, if you leave that tomato on the field, it's developing nutrients by exposure to the sun. I mean, even my chickens, because they're in a pastor and they're in the Sunday, have more vitamin D in those eggs because the sun exposure, so just taking the time to allow... No. Trains to develop and what not. Makes a huge difference.
0:18:24.6 S2: Yeah, and I buy the Einkorn Flour, I think by the fivepound bag, and I buy two of them at a time because... Well, I'm gonna go through it and I pay a premium for that. Einkorn Flour
is not the cheapest Flour on the market by any means, but I'm willing to pay that extra money because of the health effects from it, I'm willing to pay that extra money because I know that care has been taken in the growing and harvesting of it... Because Carla and her team picked the farmers to grow that Einkorn, and I just trust that that is better for me, and so I'm willing to pay the extra money, and plus the proof is in the pudding, or the proof is in the stomach, because my stomach just feels better when I eat Einkorn.
0:19:27.9 S1: Yeah, that's a thing with some of these foods, is that food's grown with this attention to detail that Karla and jovial foods put into everything that they create, which now they have lines of Italiangrown beans and tomatoes and a whole line of other glutenfree pastas as well, but that attention to detail is because they're paying attention to the care given by the farmers and the growers and the makers, and just as a farmer myself, it takes time, which takes more energy, takes more water, takes more care and tending in the labor. And so those things are gonna be more expensive, and I think their result, A, is that if you did a cost comparison of your investment to the nutritional value, it's actually a great investment, but also when something is pricey like that, because a lot of care is put into that food item, you're gonna use it with care, so it's not like white bread that you have with every meal three times a day, and you don't even think about... It's like the sacred loaf of bread that you know the labor that went into and you know the expense of the Flour, and so you're gonna treat it carefully and kindly and evaluate and enjoy it, which I think also leads to the health benefits, 'cause then you're not...
0:21:00.4 S1: Overeating. Anyone saying, you know.
0:21:03.3 S2: Right, right. And do you want me to tell you the thing I think is really wonky about... Einkorn?
0:21:08.3 S1: Yeah, what do you think is right? The one key thing...
0:21:11.8 S2: No, no, this isn't about cooking at all, it's about the name of it because... And I don't think we can blame Carla or jovial foods for the name of it, but Einkorn, just like the first time I talk to somebody about it, they're like, Oh, it's core and it's not what... I'm like, No, no, it's not core, it's actually wheat, but there's “corn” in the name, so it's difficult to explain to people that it's a week instead of instead of a corn
0:21:42.7 S1: This year, what funny things have you found about cooking with... Are being with it? 0:21:47.9 S2: Well, just behaves differently when I'm trying to eat it into a barred, and I think it needs a little bit extra need in order to the different kind of gluten that's in it, sort of circulating around.
0:22:11.7 S1: That's interesting, I actually find the opposite, I am very gentle and needed less... So the thing about the glutton and Einkorn, there's a few things about it, but it's not as strong of a structure, it's a lot more delicate, and so for our listeners, the way red works is that the US digest the sugars and the cars and make gas offgas, a gas bubbles and then the gas bubbles move through the dog and the gluten structure kinda holds together, which is what gives you all the nooks and
crannies, and so Einkorn often will be denser with smaller holes because the gluten structure is not as strong, and so
0:23:04.1 S2: Maybe I'm overworking it.
0:23:05.8 S1: You might be overworking and have been spread, it's slower to absorb fats and liquid, so it'll seem dry, and then it goes kind of the opposite and seems really what I notice Einkorn does seem extra wet, just 'cause it's... Depending how much fat you're putting in the recipe because it's slower to absorb, so you kinda have more separation of dry and wet for longer when you're working with it, but if you overmix it, you can make it too sticky. So you wanna be careful with that.
0:23:51.0 S2: The procedure is to first wait, let it absorb the water and the oil and stuff, and then where it... As little as possible. So you have to mix it, let it rest a little bit so that it does its thing and then work it... Is that right?
0:24:06.6 S1: Yeah, and Carla goes into... She's got a stepbystep YouTube videos on the Salado starter and working with the Einkorn and baking the bread. But the basic I use, there's a noneed recipe, and if you hear me flipping, I'm flipping to the recipe, like the basic French pool, which is about the most marked up recipe in my cookbook. First of all, because it's a sourdough, you mix the Sarada you make, called The Leven the night before, so you activate your starter with a certain amount of flour and you have the wet sticky stuff, then you add it to the rest and you lightly need it for just a couple of minutes, and I find it's really sticky, so you need to use like a dose grape or a venstre to do that, and then she has you do what's called Turning the do, so you basically stretch and fold it and let it rest 15 minutes then stretch and fall to let it rest, and you do that for three times at 15minute intervals, and then you let it prove for three to five hours, then you're gonna take it out and need it a little bit more and then do a second proofing.
0:25:21.9 S1: So 0:25:22.2 S2: This whole method of working and then resting is a really different thing than you do with regular weak, which is just, you need need, need need... It activates the super gluten that's in there, and then you just like you let it raise up as much as you want, but this is... You just have to treat it with a little bit more care.
0:25:44.6 S1: Yeah, and I love that. I love more often, a big bread in the winter, one of the doors all day, and it's like a day in the kitchen with timers, and I'll bring my computer or whatever work I'm working on down to the kitchen, and it starts in the morning and it goes all don't really starts tonight before and then starts in the morning, goes all day and to me, it's a meditation on patients and it's a meditation on gentleness, and I really enjoy the slowing down and I imagine not knowing Carl that... She had a lot of patience and kindness and gentleness and her to really embrace working with Einkornand probably making a lot of Los, read in writing a cookbook and in doing videos and in teaching and in leading the... The getaway retreats and things like that.
0:26:45.2 S2: Well, I think that is RTO really appreciate and thank Calabrian only creating this. I
don't think she created the entire world of Einkorn, but for me, she created the entire world of my Einhorn, created the jovial brand and created something that is... She'll be dearly missed, I'm sure, by her family and by all of us who were aware of her work, but I think what we need to recognize is that there is this company that is still dedicated to the same thing that is still living... That lives on after her and we'll continue this mission, and I'm just so grateful for that.
0:27:37.6 S1: Yeah, yeah, I agree. And while we've been talking, I haven't really shared my story with Einkorn, which is less about gluten sensitivity and more about looking for foods that are less processed and less manipulated, so stumbling on Einkorn was a piece of that puzzle for me, and learning to work with it, I wasn't really a baker before getting into Einkorn, but understanding that Einkorn takes some attention and learning has actually made me more of a biker than I ever was, and it's made it more enjoyable for me to feed friends like sage and know that I can make all kinds of fun things and my friends can eat them... My friends with gluten and talents can eat them. So I'm eternally grateful to Carla and her family. My understanding from what jovial has shared is that her daughter is going to be stepping into her role and continuing forward into the future with with jovial and the company, and that they still have a lot of great plans for the future, including they just recently released in the past year released a whole line of cassava Flour products, and I'm grateful, I think request that started, started as a quest of a concerned mother are lying to give the best care possible to her daughter and find a healing path that's still pleasurable and enjoyable for her family and for her daughter has become a mission to bring a really incredible original food, I should say return an incredible food to public awareness, and I'm eternally grateful and so
0:29:39.5 S2: Not to mention establishing an international brand in the process... Yeah. 0:29:46.3 S1: Yeah, yeah. I think it's a testament to when you stick to mission and purpose and go for it, that success can come, and the dedication in the front of her book I wanted to read as a good closing here... I try not to shutters and get through reading to my girls, Julia and Livia, always remember that on the other side of each challenge in life, their lives, something beautiful and unexpected, What a beautiful message. And a beautiful reminder.
0:30:34.2 S2: Yeah, so beautiful on.
0:30:38.5 S1: My love goes out to Carlas, family and the jovial community, and thank you so much, stage for joining me in this impromptu last minute conversation, I
0:30:51.6 S2: Go, Yeah, thank you so much. Miss, it's been my honor and pleasure.
0:30:56.7 S1: Yes, and thank you listeners. I will share on the show notes how you can find jovial Foods products and how you can get a hold of Carlas book and links to videos and all the resources about Einkorn and yeah, my heart just goes to Carla’s family and my prayers, and I hope you enjoyed this last minute impromptu episode of women in food and perhaps learn something new, got a little bit of inspiration for your next meal, as a last request and reminder, if you could go to iTunes or whatever app that you're using to listen and give us a reading and review, it's really a quick simple thing that helps me and helps women in food and our own and food community a tremendous amount. So once again, thank you for accompanying me on this delicious adventure, join me around the table for our next episode and to get ready to eat